Jean-Bernard
I too, have no interest in a running commentary on these boards. I do need
to close the loop. First I do not hate, or hold in low esteem French MEMS
investigators. Second, neither I, nor my company sells the SXM AFM
platform. After being acquired by Digital Instruments the platform is no
longer manufactured for metrology.
Finally, the original questioner asked how he might make sidewall
measurements (not anything like one mm deep) and the method I proposed is
available from someone with an SXM today, at relatively low cost and with no
technical risk. I'll stand by that recommendation.
Vic Kley
----- Original Message -----
From: Jean-Bernard Pourciel
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 1:11 AM
Subject: [mems-talk] Re:measurement of sidewall roughness
> Dear Vic
>
> OK, that's it. I have now time enough to reply to your aggressive emails
of
> the last week in the "mems-talk" forum on the subject "measurement of
> sidewall roughness".
>
> First, I apologize to all the "mems-talk" subscribers for disturbing them
by
> this reply to Vic.
>
> Vic, you don't know me; . I am the French researcher who is doing
"unusable
> and silly work" in Japan by using MEMS for vertical profilometry into deep
> and narrow micro-holes.
> I'll make a two-point reply about:
> the discourteous lines which you wrote about my work
> your low opinion on the French research labs and the French researchers in
> Mems
>
> To start with what you said about my work, I really must give you advice:
> when you want to criticize a work, and when a paper about this work is
open
> on a web site, please, read it until the end and not only the first page!
> Usually, and most probably you do the same, on the first page we put the
> introduction, and in the introduction we write about the previous works to
> give an information on the starting position of the research.. YOU HAVE
READ
> ONLY THE FIRST PAGE!!!! Somewhere in this page, you have found an accuracy
> of 500 nm (more, you say that the "paper clearly states this limitation"
of
> our work.), it was about a research which was done in 1998 on
> "VibroScanning" probes.!!!
>
> For my part, I have never said or written that our system is the best one!
> You did so about the IBM SXM ! You don't know the goal of our research! As
> you don't like to read the papers entirely I'm going to explain to you! We
> want to measure profiles (not only roughness) inside micro-holes with
some
> tens of microns in diameter and more than 1mm in depth! The IBM system
> cannot do that! You said in a previous email that "it was certainly
doable",
> but, even if you are working with AFM since many years, you don't have
done
> it. We work on our project only since two years and we have results, not
an
> accuracy of 500nm (as you said) but +/-30nm and the precision can be
> improved. This accuracy fits with the characterization requests in the
field
> of the inkjet printing or the making of micro-nozzles for fuel injection
and
> spraying into the engines. The companies want to know the inner profile of
> their micro-holes; now we can give a profile, and if we can add some
> information about the roughness, why not?
>
> As a goal, we wanted to find a solution as simple as possible. Of course
we
> know the capabilities of AFM techniques( and "we are aware of this decade
> old work by our countryman"), but I repeat that we wanted to use other
> method, simpler and more fitting with our goals. We are now improving our
> system and the software to render vertical strips of the inner surfaces
into
> micro-holes.
>
> I agree that the IBM system (which you sell) is very efficient (you said a
> resolution better than 1nm) but you cannot use it in every situation,
above
> all in narrow and deep micro-holes !
> As a comparison, if you want to do some shopping in a very very narrow
> street you don't need (and you cannot) to drive into the street with an
> expensive and beautiful Rolls Royce but it is better to come in with a
bike
> (You see! I give you the opportunity to compare our system to a bike!).
>
> Fabrice said that he is not aware of any major publication about this
work.
> For example, consult the proceedings of Transducers'01/Eurosensors XV
(June
> 2001 in Munich) or SPIE Micro/Mems International Symposium (December 2001
in
> Adelaide).
>
> Now, about your low opinion about the French researchers and the French
> labs:
>
> I think that you are free to have any opinion about the researchers from
> other countries (different than US). But I think also that there is no
space
> on the mems-talk forum to write this opinion as you did.
>
> Unlike researchers from many countries, the French researchers don't
> hesitate to stay several years in a foreign country, even with a very
> different culture such as Japan, to share the ideas and so to establish
> strong links which can be continued after going back to their own country.
It
> 's really a very good experience. And the aim is not, as you said so
> discourteously, "to reinvent the wheel"!
> The most of French researchers for Mems in Japan are young (I don't speak
> for me.. I am 54 years old!) Everyone knows that in France we have great
> labs for Mems (certainly with not as much funds than US or Japan) and when
> these young researchers come back in the French labs, they have acquired a
> lot of experience to work efficiently on Mems design.
> Make enquiries and prove to me that it's wrong!
>
> OK! Now I've got other better things to do, and I must inform you that I
don't
> want to continue this debate on the mems-talk forum.
> But, if by chance you plan to go via Tokyo, I'll be very pleased to show
you
> our lab and our experimental setup. Maybe, we'll imagine that we could
work
> together?
>
> This time, I hope that you have read this answer completely, from the
first
> line to the last one!
> No hard feelings!
>
> Scientifically yours
>
> Jean-Bernard
>
> PS: Franck, thanks for your prompt reply.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Jean-Bernard POURCIEL
> CNRS Senior Researcher
> LIMMS/CNRS
> University of Tokyo
> 4-6-1, Komaba,Meguro-Ku
> 153-8505 Tokyo
>
> Tel : +81 3 5452 6165
> Fax: +81 3 5452 6082
> http://www.fujita3.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~limms/
> -----------------------------------------------------
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